This is such a tricky question! I've found that it's a myth, however, that French people just have this concept totally ingrained in them. I've been in some awkward situations where a French person used to "tutoyer" me because we partied together in younger years, but decades later we had a more professional relationship and he or she reverted to "vous." I've also noticed some French people who switch back and forth with me. The big step of just saying "on se tutoie?" doesn't always come easily and even French people flail around.
I would personally love to see a broadening of the use of "tu", and the under-35 generation tends to feel that way, from what I've gleaned.
That's an interesting observation. Maybe it's my general wonderment over these issues that would have me assume your old friend wasn't flailing but adept, knowing instinctively to change from tu to vous in a professional setting, regardless of your longtime friendship. I love the way younger people just jump in with tu.
I actually didn’t think that person was flailing, although generally once tutoiement is acquired, it is so for life. I think you are right, she was adept. The ones “flailing” are those you keep going back and forth, sometimes within the same conversation.
We’ve lived in the same place for nearly 30 years, and I honestly think a lot of people, including French people but not excluding myself, forget in some cases which form we used in the past.
I loved your point about the how convenient it is to use “vous” because it means you can stick to “votre”!
As a Philly friend reminded me, we have an interesting relationship with the personal pronoun, as well. It's much simpler: You (or yo), with the plural, youse. (Youse guys if you are fancy.)
After living in Germany for a dozen years - sie and du, Italy for two years - lei and tu, and California for several years -usted and tú, Japan (which I never did figure out), and now France - vous and tu, I decided long ago to keep my life simple and avoid confusion (mine) by using the formal "you" with everyone until they started using the informal with me, except the obvious, like creatures that are obviously children. My dogs never gave a hoot in a holler bag what I called them, as they interpreted every word I said to mean "food."
It's their language and their customs, don-cha-no, so in the dance of language, they get to lead. And I will follow that old adage: lead, follow, or get out of way.
This is so interesting. Almost makes me wish we had the equivalent in English. (Beyond the yo form.) There are a lot of people I'd like to vouvoyer me!
I'm hung up on 《téléphone portable》. In my French lessons on Duolingo, they are teaching that only 《portable》will suffice. Do native speakers really use the two-word version?
Actually, I hear « mobile » more frequently lately. Portable does suffice. With my mostly English-speaking readers I thought the two-word term would be more easily understood than « portable. »
I love this! Especially the observation about knowing the gender of nouns - so true! As an American I've always followed the lead of the other person. As an imperfectly fluent person, I find myself going back and forth between tu and vous in the same conversation for reasons that are a mystery to me, and, sans doute, to the other person.
Such an interesting discussion! In German we have the same distinction (du/Sie) but in Austria we are kind of getting used to use du more frequently than before, even in business context (probably due to American influence where it used to be common to address each other by first names).
I make the following distinction: if I am in a store, At the airport, at the doctors, an agency or any other official situation I use „Sie (vous)“. If I am in a casual surrounding like classroom, party, wine tasting etc. I use tu if I feel comfortable with the person I talk to, if we „hit it off“. It’s more about a feeling than a rule. Often it is the way people smile that invites me to propose the use of „du“. Since I am retired I have generally more freedom than I had in a business context.
But frankly, I would try to raise this subject with my French acquaintances to find out more! It could be an interesting topic or research opportunity! Good luck!
Great advice and insight, Irmgard. I think one obstacle I face in identifying a "feeling" is that I'm not as intuitive or perceptive in French as I am in English. It is improving, but I know sometimes I miss the point or don't get the joke, you know?
As long as I have spoken French and had French friends and acquaintances I will never quite solve the "tu" "vous" mystery. Usually, I just copy what my friends do and hope they have it right which they should since they are native speakers.
Another peculiarity of the whole tu/vous business is that curses always use the tu form regardless of whether you know the person or not, as if to make the insult more personal, I suppose. I've also noticed that French people are very adept at avoiding direct address in situations of dubious levels of formality, thus dodging the problem of tutoying or vouvoying.
My mother and her best friend vouvoyed each other throughout their entire friendship, and I thought it was crazy. The nuances and intricacies of the French often stymie me and will continue to do so. I tell people to tutoie me right away because the Vous just makes me feel old and way too formal.
I vous everyone, Frank. Especially the bartenders.
Ha! Had not really considered the gift of “votre,” but tu as raison.
This is such a tricky question! I've found that it's a myth, however, that French people just have this concept totally ingrained in them. I've been in some awkward situations where a French person used to "tutoyer" me because we partied together in younger years, but decades later we had a more professional relationship and he or she reverted to "vous." I've also noticed some French people who switch back and forth with me. The big step of just saying "on se tutoie?" doesn't always come easily and even French people flail around.
I would personally love to see a broadening of the use of "tu", and the under-35 generation tends to feel that way, from what I've gleaned.
That's an interesting observation. Maybe it's my general wonderment over these issues that would have me assume your old friend wasn't flailing but adept, knowing instinctively to change from tu to vous in a professional setting, regardless of your longtime friendship. I love the way younger people just jump in with tu.
I actually didn’t think that person was flailing, although generally once tutoiement is acquired, it is so for life. I think you are right, she was adept. The ones “flailing” are those you keep going back and forth, sometimes within the same conversation.
We’ve lived in the same place for nearly 30 years, and I honestly think a lot of people, including French people but not excluding myself, forget in some cases which form we used in the past.
I loved your point about the how convenient it is to use “vous” because it means you can stick to “votre”!
As a Philly friend reminded me, we have an interesting relationship with the personal pronoun, as well. It's much simpler: You (or yo), with the plural, youse. (Youse guys if you are fancy.)
After living in Germany for a dozen years - sie and du, Italy for two years - lei and tu, and California for several years -usted and tú, Japan (which I never did figure out), and now France - vous and tu, I decided long ago to keep my life simple and avoid confusion (mine) by using the formal "you" with everyone until they started using the informal with me, except the obvious, like creatures that are obviously children. My dogs never gave a hoot in a holler bag what I called them, as they interpreted every word I said to mean "food."
It's their language and their customs, don-cha-no, so in the dance of language, they get to lead. And I will follow that old adage: lead, follow, or get out of way.
This is so interesting. Almost makes me wish we had the equivalent in English. (Beyond the yo form.) There are a lot of people I'd like to vouvoyer me!
I'm hung up on 《téléphone portable》. In my French lessons on Duolingo, they are teaching that only 《portable》will suffice. Do native speakers really use the two-word version?
Actually, I hear « mobile » more frequently lately. Portable does suffice. With my mostly English-speaking readers I thought the two-word term would be more easily understood than « portable. »
I love this! Especially the observation about knowing the gender of nouns - so true! As an American I've always followed the lead of the other person. As an imperfectly fluent person, I find myself going back and forth between tu and vous in the same conversation for reasons that are a mystery to me, and, sans doute, to the other person.
Such an interesting discussion! In German we have the same distinction (du/Sie) but in Austria we are kind of getting used to use du more frequently than before, even in business context (probably due to American influence where it used to be common to address each other by first names).
I make the following distinction: if I am in a store, At the airport, at the doctors, an agency or any other official situation I use „Sie (vous)“. If I am in a casual surrounding like classroom, party, wine tasting etc. I use tu if I feel comfortable with the person I talk to, if we „hit it off“. It’s more about a feeling than a rule. Often it is the way people smile that invites me to propose the use of „du“. Since I am retired I have generally more freedom than I had in a business context.
But frankly, I would try to raise this subject with my French acquaintances to find out more! It could be an interesting topic or research opportunity! Good luck!
Great advice and insight, Irmgard. I think one obstacle I face in identifying a "feeling" is that I'm not as intuitive or perceptive in French as I am in English. It is improving, but I know sometimes I miss the point or don't get the joke, you know?
I perfectly understand you, Theresa! And you will improve step by step. Just cut you some slack. We are learning from our mistakes!
As long as I have spoken French and had French friends and acquaintances I will never quite solve the "tu" "vous" mystery. Usually, I just copy what my friends do and hope they have it right which they should since they are native speakers.
It's comforting to know that even you still find it mysterious.
In Philly it so much simpler. First, you don’t ask for permission. You just:
Hey You = unfamiliar
Yo= unfamiliar but likely lives here
Yo, Yo = familiar
Yo, Yo, Yo= Now you’ve really gone and done it ( anyone)
I love this. And, of course, there is the favorite, youse.
Wonderful!! 😀
Another peculiarity of the whole tu/vous business is that curses always use the tu form regardless of whether you know the person or not, as if to make the insult more personal, I suppose. I've also noticed that French people are very adept at avoiding direct address in situations of dubious levels of formality, thus dodging the problem of tutoying or vouvoying.
Ha! Great observation. I thought of including the vulgar, Ta gueule, and how I’ve never heard it with vous.
Mon Dieu! If you are having this angst, what must Don be going through?
He knows how to ask for a beer, so he's good.
Oh this made me laugh 😆
My mother and her best friend vouvoyed each other throughout their entire friendship, and I thought it was crazy. The nuances and intricacies of the French often stymie me and will continue to do so. I tell people to tutoie me right away because the Vous just makes me feel old and way too formal.
That’s so interesting about your mom and her friend. I am often stunned by how easily and immediately young people use Tu. The differences!!
Think about how, growing up, adults were always Mr. Mrs. Miss but now kids call everyone by first name
I never thought of the adjectival challenges of this decision! Now that is a reason to think twice about adopting the "tu" with someone.